Sending 20k emails

[ZappoMan]

I want to send an email to my registered users... we're into the tens of thousands range. We've got the code worked out to pull the users from the db, and mail to them, we've even got our opt-out working well... and from a CAN-SPAM perspective we're in good shape.

But usually we use a trusted relay to mail the daily/real time emails related to blog posts, and we don't send 10's thousands per day... we don't need to... but if I want to mail to all my users, I'm concerned about tripping up anti-spam measures somewhere out there in the internet. (Nice techie talk eh?)

How would you send email to all your users... if you're in the 10's of thousands range?

Do you send from your own server? Do you use a relay service?

Any tips? Obvious advice you can give me?

[drmike]

Hmmm, this should be up my alley as I'm in all those antispam groups and I'm drawing a blank.

The big question to ask is even with CAN-SPAM, did your users optin in to the mailing when they joined up?  With can-spam, as long as you have a business relationship with them, you can send the email.  The ethicial response is to only send it to those folks who actually ok'ed it.

Just for reference, what specifically are you sending out?  It's it just a newsletter, you should be fine mostly.  If it's promotional copy trying to get folks to buy upgrades, you'll get more complaints.

On my own boxes, it's opt-in and only opt-in.

Do you think your box(es) can handle the load?  Also does the service make any promise not to keep the email addresses?  Have you researched the relay service to see what their past experiences have been?

[Andrea_R]

For something that large, I'd be inclined to shuffle them out to a service like Aweber. Paid, yes, but they can handle it.

[ZappoMan]

What are the best services out there?

What criteria would you use to judge them?

Cost?

Track Record? (If so, who do I find that out?)

[Andrea_R]

Aweber is one of the best, not that I've used it myself, but if it's good enough for people like Problogger and others? That's enough for me. And he recently said the track record for them was really really good.

[ZappoMan]

Looks like it would cost about $150/month to use aweber at our current size.

I don't want to sound cheap, but is that the market rate?

I guess I'm trying to wrap my head around the business case here. As I understand it, I'd be paying for:

1) Reliable delivery (I guess they'll make sure my email doesn't tip up spam filters for dumb reasons).
2) Click tracking
3) Open rate tracking
4) Analytics, analytics, analytics...

It looks like aweber has a ton of other features, but I'm not sure if I'd even know/want to use them.

I guess, those are all about email marketing, and if that's what we're doing, then that's what we'd need to get smart about.

But it seems a little like overkill...

[ZappoMan]

This is great advice from you guys. Thanks.

Other folks are strongly recommending MailChimp...

It looks like the price point for all these services are pretty similar, and the feature set seems similar to...

Anyway, after thinking it through, I've decided I don't really want to send to all my users like this...

From a marketing perspective it makes way more sense to segment these users and tailor the message to them in a specific way depending on their interests and their engagement with the site.

Again, thanks for being a sounding board... it helps me to ask the question out loud, in a room full of smart people... If you guys all shoot me dirty looks, then I know I must have said something pretty stupid.

Thanks again.

[drmike]

Oh I so want to make a comment about the stupid smart people [that was a typo.  excuse me] line but I'm going to be a good boy today. 

One thing you can do is to start a mail list now on your box.  Chances are you'll never get a lot of folks signed up to it and you can run it off of your box since it won't be 20k emails.  Folks will then have opt'ed in and your butt will be covered.

Label it your month newsletter, use it to promote new features and maybe hosted blogs of interest, list any current promotions, etc.

[ZappoMan]

That good advice.

But, can I ask you this sincere question...

It seems to me that if someone signed up, created a blog, and are using the service, and in fact are getting emails from their blog, then they have in fact opted in to receive email from us...

Now, I know that people can complain that they didn't want to get the email... and certainly it seems the rules for spammers are pretty hard core (and for good reason)... but it also seems to me that people who actually "opt in" are just as likely to have forgotten that they did so.

I guess my point is, that it seems like the difference between  a list of people who registered and explicitly gave you their email is the same whether they signed up for a blog/account on your services vs. they asked for a newsletter.

I'm sure I'll get some kind of a flame for this question, but in the grand scheme of human behavior (and that's what we're talking about here) it seems to me these two classes are equivalent.


No?

[drmike]

It seems to me that if someone signed up, created a blog, and are using the service, and in fact are getting emails from their blog, then they have in fact opted in to receive email from us...

Sure.  And since you posted a question to me, I'll send your email address to my *cough* adult content provider.  He'll sign you up for all of his 900 email lists. Luke's going to sign you up for him email lists as well as send your email to that driving course that teaches folks how to right hand turns.

You're looking at can-spam.  You do realize that it says that you "can spam", right?  Not all laws are ethical. 

Chances are if you make a big deal about it saying that this email list will let folks know about updates and status, most folks who are paying attention will sign up for it.

If you want to add a checkbox during signup, that's good as well although I would leave it as unchecked and let the folks actually check it if they want it.

Of course you could do what you suggest and add a line to your ToS/AUP to cover your ass.  No matter what, I would do that even if you don't have a mailing list.  That way, if there is an issue, you're allowed to send an email. (ie "We reserve the option to contact you if a problem should arise...")

Now, I know that people can complain that they didn't want to get the email... and certainly it seems the rules for spammers are pretty hard core (and for good reason)... but it also seems to me that people who actually "opt in" are just as likely to have forgotten that they did so.

That's why you keep a record of the date, time, and ip address of when they did.  Most good mailing list software will do this for you since it's expected.

I guess my point is, that it seems like the difference between  a list of people who registered and explicitly gave you their email is the same whether they signed up for a blog/account on your services vs. they asked for a newsletter.

There is and if you hang out with antispammers, you'll see that point pop up a lot.  CAN-SPAM lets you do that.  Right now, I'm fighting with 1&1 over a client of theirs who is sending me 5 emails a day since I play one of their client's on line games.  I've never opt'ed in, I've unsubscribed, I've complained both to the client as well as 1&1 and I'm still getting them.  Does that make it right?

I'm sure I'll get some kind of a flame for this question, but in the grand scheme of human behavior (and that's what we're talking about here) it seems to me these two classes are equivalent.

No, you would get flame if you came in here and asked something like "How do I make a mail list?"  What you're asking shows that you put some thought into it.  I disagree with that thought but I'm not going to flame you.

Now where's my client's email address...

[ZappoMan]

Sure.  And since you posted a question to me, I'll send your email address to my *cough* adult content provider.  He'll sign you up for all of his 900 email lists. Luke's going to sign you up for him email lists as well as send your email to that driving course that teaches folks how to right hand turns.

At first I read this, and I totally didn't understand what you are saying... then I read it 3 more times... and I think I understand what you're saying.

I think you're saying that "my email" might have been signed up to some email list by someone else... (in your example, you and Luke could decide to add me to a spam list to spite me or profit from me)...

Ok, I'm totally willing to take the risk that somehow some user on my system was signed up by someone else.. I am pretty certain the size of that list is currently zero... but you're right it could be non-zero.

If this is your best argument against mailing to people, then well... I guess I'm not convinced at all.

I'm talking about a legit list of people who proactively signed up. I feel pretty clear about that.

Of course you could do what you suggest and add a line to your ToS/AUP to cover your ass.  No matter what, I would do that even if you don't have a mailing list.  That way, if there is an issue, you're allowed to send an email. (ie "We reserve the option to contact you if a problem should arise...")

Actually our TOS and Privacy policy explicitly says we can send you email and market to you... but alas, I'm sure most people don't read that. I am not at all concerned from a legal perspective.

I know all this communication is well within not only the law... but really in my opinion, it's within a reasonable interpretation of what one would expect when they sign up for a service.

I suspect Dr. Mike, that the first time you got email from this game company, you weren't surprised or offended... you probably said, ok, I'll click the unsubscriibe link... and had they respected that link, you'd have been happy as a clam.

Honestly, if you were really offended the first time you got an email from a service that you explicitly signed up to... then I think you're probably being a little bit unreasonable.

That's why you keep a record of the date, time, and ip address of when they did.  Most good mailing list software will do this for you since it's expected.

Agreed, and in the case of people who signed up for a blog... which is what I'm working with as a base, WPMU has this... The more I look into this, the more I realize how much is missing from wpmu's mail capabilities... it really seems like some of this stuff should be more integrated. But it's easy enough to build/piece together.

Right now, I'm fighting with 1&1 over a client of theirs who is sending me 5 emails a day since I play one of their client's on line games.  I've never opt'ed in, I've unsubscribed, I've complained both to the client as well as 1&1 and I'm still getting them.  Does that make it right?

Clearly if you asked to not have emails sent, then they should stop sending you emails... that's lame..

If someone opts out, then clearly I wouldn't send them emails. I'm no slime ball!

[drmike]

At first I read this, and I totally didn't understand what you are saying... then I read it 3 more times... and I think I understand what you're saying.

Actually it was meant as a bit of a joke as well as an example.  You signed up for an account here at this site.  Using your example, Luke can sign you up for any of his mail lists. (The driving school example.) Since I'm also one of the admins, I also have access to your email address.  using your line of reasoning, that means I can sign you up with my client and send you information as well.

I probably should have explained it a bit better.  I'm sitting in a mall.  It's not like it's quiet here.

I think you're saying that "my email" might have been signed up to some email list by someone else... (in your example, you and Luke could decide to add me to a spam list to spite me or profit from me)...

No, I'm trying to show you another example of what can be done with following your reasoning.  It was a bit of a stretch I'll admit.

I'm talking about a legit list of people who proactively signed up. I feel pretty clear about that.

The concern is what they signed up for.  If they only signed up for an account, sending them marketing emails may be an issue since they didn't agree to that.  As you noted later on, since it's in your AUP, you are pretty much covered.

If you do have someone complain, I would just apologize, point them to the AuP where you have it listed and then go ahead and remove them, even if they don't officially ask.  Just to get them off the list.

Actually our TOS and Privacy policy explicitly says we can send you email and market to you... but alas, I'm sure most people don't read that. I am not at all concerned from a legal perspective.

I actually do read that stuff and look for opt-in/opt-out but that's just me.

I know all this communication is well within not only the law... but really in my opinion, it's within a reasonable interpretation of what one would expect when they sign up for a service.

Considering what I get in my inbox, I think most business would agree.  Again though it comes down to ethics in my opinion. 

What I would have done would have included an opt out box during the signup for people like me.  For those who don't want the emails, give them a way out during signup.  I would leave a line though saying that you reserved the option to send an email if there was an account or server issue.

I suspect Dr. Mike, that the first time you got email from this game company, you weren't surprised or offended... you probably said, ok, I'll click the unsubscriibe link... and had they respected that link, you'd have been happy as a clam.

Actually I marked it as spam and complained to the company.  When I continued to received more, I continued my complaints and raised the issue with 1&1 as well.  I don't unsubscribe from something I never signed up for in the first place.  The only reason I tried that was I was hoping it would work.

Honestly, if you were really offended the first time you got an email from a service that you explicitly signed up to... then I think you're probably being a little bit unreasonable.

Again it depends on what the email was.  If I told the company that I didn't want marketing emails and then got one, you're going against my wishes and I wouldn't be doing any more business with that company.

Agreed, and in the case of people who signed up for a blog... which is what I'm working with as a base, WPMU has this... The more I look into this, the more I realize how much is missing from wpmu's mail capabilities... it really seems like some of this stuff should be more integrated. But it's easy enough to build/piece together.

As an aside, that email that you receive when a new blog is created, we added in a report of the ip address.  Helps you notice if you're having a spam run.  Just a thought.

[ZappoMan]

At first I read this, and I totally didn't understand what you are saying... then I read it 3 more times... and I think I understand what you're saying.

Actually it was meant as a bit of a joke as well as an example.  You signed up for an account here at this site.  Using your example, Luke can sign you up for any of his mail lists. (The driving school example.) Since I'm also one of the admins, I also have access to your email address.  using your line of reasoning, that means I can sign you up with my client and send you information as well.

I don't understand how "my reasoning" supports this at all?

I absolutely have not ever suggested that I would take someones email and sign them up for a marketing list... that's completely unacceptable... I'm pretty certain it's illegal, and it's certainly not ethical.

I am saying that I am going to send them email ABOUT THE SERVICE they signed up for.

Is that marketing? Well, sure... but it's a controlled list that they signed up for.

Very different from me selling their email to someone... I wouldn't do that. I never will do that.

But me marketing to them, and respecting their wishes to not receive that email if they ask to be removed, that's a totally different situation.

[Andrea_R]

Zappo, I think you're totally within  reason to think that you can (and should) email your users about the service they sign up for. Whether or not you've explicitly stated that it may or may not happen.

It seems to me that if someone signed up, created a blog, and are using the service, and in fact are getting emails from their blog, then they have in fact opted in to receive email from us...
...
I guess my point is, that it seems like the difference between  a list of people who registered and explicitly gave you their email is the same whether they signed up for a blog/account on your services vs. they asked for a newsletter.

ITA. There's arguably a case there for implicit agreement.

And I don't even hang aroudn a bunch of lawyers, but I doubt you'd argue things with any of your users until it got to that point.

[Luke]

Luke's going to sign you up for him email lists as well as send your email to that driving course that teaches folks how to right hand turns.

heh..   Lemme tell you about 180Mph around Texas Motor Speedway.
People pay a whole lot more money for a rush like that.

Woooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

// Aside

The f**kin wi-fi at DFW blows.